Discussion:
Super Double Secret Command
(too old to reply)
namtog
2004-06-20 19:48:45 UTC
Permalink
Greetings Yahoo Blat Group,

I may not post much but I have been a fairly regular lurker. This
news group has been, and I suspect, will continue to be quite the
education for me. I noticed that a few other people have had problems
with the first - in the Blat syntax. It's nice not to be the only one.

Give me a moment to put on my tinfoil hat. Oh, it's worth the extra
money for the heavy duty foil, cuts way back on the cross talk. OK.
I'm sure this has been explained many times before but I just don'
get it. Why does blat use different syntax from the venerable
sendmail? Body is body, subject is subject. Now, that being said, is
there some super double secret way to convince Blat to use sendmail
syntax. Perhaps when one is setting their presets? Type in something
like yadda yadda "use sendmail syntax" yadda yadda. Or must one type
something like "Tim is the brightest stud of all code warriors"
Either way I am convinced such a command exist. It's OK to tell all
of us in this newsgroup. Really. Honest. THE LEADER approves.

Give me a moment to remove my tinfoil hat. I've learned the hard way
not to wear it when I am cleaning out my eave gutters. Especially
near the power lines.

For those who, like me, just run small hobby sites on their home DSL
line it looks like Blat and Yahoopops [
http://yahoopops.sourceforge.net/ ] are a killer combo. Unless the
whole Yahoo domain is on a black list the email is never treated as
spam. If I use my ISP email one in every 20 or so never get the
email.

Thanks to all who contribute to this group.





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Chip
2004-06-20 20:26:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by namtog
Greetings Yahoo Blat Group,
I may not post much but I have been a fairly regular lurker. This
news group has been, and I suspect, will continue to be quite the
education for me. I noticed that a few other people have had problems
with the first - in the Blat syntax. It's nice not to be the only one.
Give me a moment to put on my tinfoil hat. Oh, it's worth the extra
money for the heavy duty foil, cuts way back on the cross talk. OK.
I'm sure this has been explained many times before but I just don'
get it. Why does blat use different syntax from the venerable
sendmail? Body is body, subject is subject. Now, that being said, is
there some super double secret way to convince Blat to use sendmail
syntax. Perhaps when one is setting their presets? Type in something
like yadda yadda "use sendmail syntax" yadda yadda. Or must one type
something like "Tim is the brightest stud of all code warriors"
Either way I am convinced such a command exist. It's OK to tell all
of us in this newsgroup. Really. Honest. THE LEADER approves.
Give me a moment to remove my tinfoil hat. I've learned the hard way
not to wear it when I am cleaning out my eave gutters. Especially
near the power lines.
For those who, like me, just run small hobby sites on their home DSL
line it looks like Blat and Yahoopops [
http://yahoopops.sourceforge.net/ ] are a killer combo. Unless the
whole Yahoo domain is on a black list the email is never treated as
spam. If I use my ISP email one in every 20 or so never get the
email.
Thanks to all who contribute to this group.
As I sit here in my pyramid in a lotus position, transferring my thoughts to
that lowly material object called a computer, I contemplate the following:

I am a relative newcomer to Blat, having started looking at the source at
the end of 2002 or early 2003. I cannot answer the "why" part of your
question, but I can tell you there is no "super duper secret" command to get
Blat to accept sendmail commands. I must confess that I do not know what
commands are available for sendmail (will check shortly). I would guess
part of the reason is that Blat is not written or compiled to run on *nix
systems, and sendmail is not natively available for Windows (is available
from IndigoSTAR as IndigoMail), so there does/did not seem to be a need for
this cross pollination of the command syntax.

Chip



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namtog
2004-06-20 21:50:39 UTC
Permalink
Greetings Chip,

[tinfoil hat]
Ah, the plot thickens. Notice the cryptic misdirection from the ever
clever and wise Chip. Example "I am a relative newcomer to Blat".
Chip I have been reading your posts for some time now and your skill
level is way beyond newcomer. Sir, false modesty does not become you.
Example 2 'but I can tell you there is no "super duper secret"
command to get Blat to accept sendmail commands'. My research has
determined that it is a Super Double Secret command, not super DUPER
secret. Nice move Chip, but you will not send me astray that easily.

Next Chip writes "and sendmail is not natively available for Windows
(is available from IndigoSTAR as IndigoMail)". IndigoMail is not
freeware. Why should I pay for software when I can make whinny
demands to people that are paid professionals to stop what they are
doing and code a freeware project to my liking? I read your veiled
suggestion that I too could " start looking at the source". You
expect to much of me. I am not that well endowed, when it comes to
writing code, as if that was any of your business. Instead I will
make adamant suggestions that Blat be done my way. This is the
American way. Perhaps the Patriot Act applies to you?

Next Chip the Wiley states, "so there does/did not seem to be a need
for this cross pollination of the command syntax". Please, with all
the wonderful Perl and PHP apps that call on sendmail. I'm sure you
are well aware that the days of using SMTP without authentication are
well over. Unless one likes feeding spam filters. With the situation
the way it is from the powers that be that can not be named lowly
hobbyists like me are forced to write perl scripts to call Blat for
numerous chat, dating, auction, etc. programs. To further muddy the
water I was forced to modify the php.ini file to call php_blat.pl
instead of sendmail. Php_blat.pl then talks to Blat. Naturally I
wrote php_blat.pl in perl to further confuse the lower life forms
that code in PHP. But this is a subject for a different occasion.
Once again I bow to your superior intellect, as you lead me down the
garden trail.

I am a true believer, I will not be swayed.
[/tinfoil hat]

Namtog





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Tim Musson
2004-06-20 22:57:47 UTC
Permalink
Hey namtog,

On Sunday, June 20, 2004 at 5:50:39 PM you wrote

n> With the situation the way it is from the powers that be that can
n> not be named lowly hobbyists like me are forced to write perl
n> scripts to call Blat for numerous chat, dating, auction, etc.
n> programs. To further muddy the water I was forced to modify the
n> php.ini file to call php_blat.pl instead of sendmail. Php_blat.pl
n> then talks to Blat. Naturally I wrote php_blat.pl in perl to
n> further confuse the lower life forms that code in PHP.

I am always interested in seeing how people use Blat (especially from
Perl, my favorite toy - after Blat of course :-). Interested in
sharing? If you want to write up what you are doing PHP->Perl->Blat, I
would be more than glad to post it on the Blat web site (Examples
page).

One question, why have Perl call Blat (nothing against Blat though)?
Perl has no problems sending mail natively...
--
Tim Musson
Flying with The Bat! eMail v2.11.02
Life is sexually transmitted.
Blat Manager, current version is 2.2.2, see www.blat.net



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namtog
2004-06-21 00:09:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tim Musson
One question, why have Perl call Blat (nothing against Blat though)?
Perl has no problems sending mail natively...
--
Blat, a executable, seems to me to be much faster then Perl. I run
older hardware. I have never bothered looking into the Perl mail
modules. I don't know if they do authentication. And if it does where
is it storing my account info? Should I now allow a perl script to
write to the registry? Bah, why bother, Blat does all I need.



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Tim Musson
2004-06-21 00:35:16 UTC
Permalink
Hey namtog,

On Sunday, June 20, 2004 at 8:09:19 PM you wrote

n> Blat, a executable, seems to me to be much faster then Perl. I run
n> older hardware. I have never bothered looking into the Perl mail
n> modules. I don't know if they do authentication. And if it does where
n> is it storing my account info? Should I now allow a perl script to
n> write to the registry? Bah, why bother, Blat does all I need.

LOL, that is the best reason I have heard I think!
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Flashlight: A case for holding dead batteries.
Blat Manager, current version is 2.2.2, see www.blat.net



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Lew Schwartz
2004-06-21 16:28:47 UTC
Permalink
Well, is there? And if so, what's it name & where can I get it?
-Lew




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Tim Musson
2004-06-21 17:08:34 UTC
Permalink
Hey Lew,

On Monday, June 21, 2004 at 12:28:47 PM you wrote

LS> Well, is there? And if so, what's it name & where can I get it?
LS> -Lew

Check out http://www.interlog.com/~tcharron/getmail.html
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Lew Schwartz
2004-06-21 22:21:41 UTC
Permalink
Hi Tim:
Yeh, looking for a dll, though. Thanks.


________________________________

From: Tim Musson [mailto:***@sdf.lonestar.org]
Sent: Monday, June 21, 2004 1:09 PM
To: Lew Schwartz
Subject: Re: [blat] OT: Is there a blat like pop3 client available?


Hey Lew,

On Monday, June 21, 2004 at 12:28:47 PM you wrote

LS> Well, is there? And if so, what's it name & where can I get it?
LS> -Lew

Check out http://www.interlog.com/~tcharron/getmail.html
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Tim Musson
Flying with The Bat! eMail v2.11.02
Bad command or filename! GO stand in the corner.
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--
Homepage:
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Tim Musson
2004-06-20 22:29:01 UTC
Permalink
Hey namtog,

On Sunday, June 20, 2004 at 3:48:45 PM you wrote

n> "Tim is the brightest stud of all code warriors"

That has the wife ROTFL... hmmm
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Printed on 100% recycled electrons.
Blat Manager, current version is 2.2.2, see www.blat.net



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Tim Musson
2004-06-20 22:41:02 UTC
Permalink
Hey namtog,

On Sunday, June 20, 2004 at 3:48:45 PM you wrote

n> I may not post much but I have been a fairly regular lurker. This
n> news group has been, and I suspect, will continue to be quite the
n> education for me. I noticed that a few other people have had
n> problems with the first - in the Blat syntax. It's nice not to be
n> the only one.

n> Give me a moment to put on my tinfoil hat. Oh, it's worth the extra
n> money for the heavy duty foil, cuts way back on the cross talk. OK.
n> I'm sure this has been explained many times before but I just don'
n> get it. Why does blat use different syntax from the venerable
n> sendmail?

Looking in the archives...
http://www.blat.net/?faq/index.html and check the following:
"CGI - Why does Perl code written for Sendmail not work with Blat?"

Blat was never meant as a replacement for the Unix sendmail program
(not even the message sending part of sendmail).


n> Body is body, subject is subject. Now, that being said, is there
n> some super double secret way to convince Blat to use sendmail
n> syntax. Perhaps when one is setting their presets? Type in
n> something like yadda yadda "use sendmail syntax" yadda yadda. Or
n> must one type something like "Tim is the brightest stud of all code
n> warriors" Either way I am convinced such a command exist.

n> It's OK to tell all of us in this newsgroup.
n> Really.
n> Honest.
n> THE LEADER approves.

?Are you sure? who would that be? (looking in both directions :-) LOL

n> Give me a moment to remove my tinfoil hat. I've learned the hard way
n> not to wear it when I am cleaning out my eave gutters. Especially
n> near the power lines.

n> For those who, like me, just run small hobby sites on their home
n> DSL line it looks like Blat and Yahoopops [
n> http://yahoopops.sourceforge.net/ ] are a killer combo. Unless the
n> whole Yahoo domain is on a black list the email is never treated as
n> spam. If I use my ISP email one in every 20 or so never get the
n> email.
--
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Flying with The Bat! eMail v2.11.02
"NUMBER CRUNCHING: Jumping on a Computer."
Blat Manager, current version is 2.2.2, see www.blat.net



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Tim Musson
2004-06-20 22:48:17 UTC
Permalink
Hey namtog,

On Sunday, June 20, 2004 at 3:48:45 PM you wrote

n> Why does blat use different syntax from the venerable sendmail?

One answer could be "which of the 10,999,999 options of sendmail
should Blat support?"

By the time we incorporated all the bits everyone wanted we would have
sendmail in it's entirety, I would think.

One way I know sendmail is used is to pass it a file with all headers
included. You *can* also do this with Blat! Use the -raw option.

Which sendmail options were you looking at?
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namtog
2004-06-20 23:57:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tim Musson
Hey namtog,
n> Why does blat use different syntax from the venerable sendmail?
One answer could be "which of the 10,999,999 options of sendmail
should Blat support?"
By the time we incorporated all the bits everyone wanted we would have
sendmail in it's entirety, I would think.
One way I know sendmail is used is to pass it a file with all
headers
Post by Tim Musson
included. You *can* also do this with Blat! Use the -raw option.
Which sendmail options were you looking at?
--
Tim Musson
Flying with The Bat! eMail v2.11.02
Budget: A method for going broke methodically.
Blat Manager, current version is 2.2.2, see www.blat.net
Hey Tim,

Tim wrote, "Which sendmail options were you looking at?" It is not so
much a matter of options as it is traditions. Blat is already more
then flexible and powerful enough for any project I have come across
so far.

The thing is so many perl scripts, in particular, have the "location
of sendmail" configuration requirement. Not that I am any where near
clever enough but it seems to me that if I was going to write a
windows outgoing mail module I would follow the same command line
tradition as sendmail. This way it would have been a drop in
replacement for so many applications. At least those that only need
out going email. I would have no need to write little perl scripts to
sit between the application and Blat. How many perl applications have
you seen that ask "location of Blat"?

Please don't misunderstand me. Linux, FreeBSD, Sun, etc. are all
wonderful platforms. I would use them myself in a commercial or
industrial setting. But for home and hobby use windows rules. I also
love the GPL license. It allowed me to pick up many different ways of
writing. However, I am a hobbyist. My time is my own.

Blat works slightly different then Sendmail. I strongly suspect this
has slowed down good things like Apache for windows. People get put
off and tend to dismiss free and open source software as a toy or
second rate. This allowed the IIs server, for example, to
proliferate. I suspect many of these box's end up being zombies. It
does not seem to me that many folks are lazy, it's just that learning
a scripting language is a bit too demanding. Mostly in matters of
time. At first. Now, if they can copy a script and get it up and
running. That is something that can generate enough interest to
foster further pursuits. Like learning a script language. Email is
pretty much a basic requirement for so many things. It shouldn't be
hard for a basic setup.

Well, I've wondered far enough off topic here. It just that a
different tradition for blat seems like reinventing the wheel. I've
never understood why.

My guess is the answer is palpable. I'm just too dense to see it.
Know of a good book I could read on this subject?

Namtog




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Tim Musson
2004-06-21 01:06:22 UTC
Permalink
Hey namtog,

On Sunday, June 20, 2004 at 7:57:42 PM you wrote

n>>> Why does blat use different syntax from the venerable sendmail?
Post by Tim Musson
One answer could be "which of the 10,999,999 options of sendmail
should Blat support?"
By the time we incorporated all the bits everyone wanted we would
have sendmail in it's entirety, I would think.
One way I know sendmail is used is to pass it a file with all
headers included. You *can* also do this with Blat! Use the -raw
option.
Which sendmail options were you looking at?
n> Tim wrote, "Which sendmail options were you looking at?" It is not
n> so much a matter of options as it is traditions. Blat is already
n> more then flexible and powerful enough for any project I have come
n> across so far.

n> The thing is so many perl scripts, in particular, have the
n> "location of sendmail" configuration requirement. Not that I am any
n> where near clever enough but it seems to me that if I was going to
n> write a windows outgoing mail module I would follow the same
n> command line tradition as sendmail. This way it would have been a
n> drop in replacement for so many applications.

Ah, I see now where you are coming from.

Blat's origin was to just send a quick eMail from the Command line in
Windows. It has sense matured into what it is now, but (guessing here)
it only started being used as a 'replacement' for *nix sendmail around
the 1.8.x level. By this time, it was a *long* way down it's
development path - which was *very* different than sendmail...

IIRC sendmail's origin was as an MTA (it's been about 6 years sense I
read the O'Reilly sendmail book
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/sendmail3/index.html ). The ability to
send from the command line was added later.

n> At least those that only need out going email. I would have no need
n> to write little perl scripts to sit between the application and
n> Blat. How many perl applications have you seen that ask "location
n> of Blat"?

One mainly - formmail.pl from "Matt's Script Archive" then modified to
run on Win32 (I can't recall the exact link). However, it has been
re-written to clean it up, etc and now no longer uses Blat, it sends
with Perl modules ( http://nms-cgi.sourceforge.net/ ).

n> Please don't misunderstand me. Linux, FreeBSD, Sun, etc. are all
n> wonderful platforms. I would use them myself in a commercial or
n> industrial setting. But for home and hobby use windows rules. I
n> also love the GPL license. It allowed me to pick up many different
n> ways of writing. However, I am a hobbyist. My time is my own.

n> Blat works slightly different then Sendmail. I strongly suspect
n> this has slowed down good things like Apache for windows. People
n> get put off and tend to dismiss free and open source software as a
n> toy or second rate. This allowed the IIs server, for example, to
n> proliferate. I suspect many of these box's end up being zombies. It
n> does not seem to me that many folks are lazy, it's just that
n> learning a scripting language is a bit too demanding. Mostly in
n> matters of time. At first. Now, if they can copy a script and get
n> it up and running. That is something that can generate enough
n> interest to foster further pursuits. Like learning a script
n> language. Email is pretty much a basic requirement for so many
n> things. It shouldn't be hard for a basic setup.

n> Well, I've wondered far enough off topic here. It just that a
n> different tradition for blat seems like reinventing the wheel. I've
n> never understood why.

Actually, I think this is right on topic.

Not sure I would say anything about Blat is "reinventing the wheel" I
just looked in an old 1.1 archive, and the blat.exe has a 1994 date!
Yes, sendmail is older, but I don't think they were ever on parallel
development paths.

n> My guess is the answer is palpable. I'm just too dense to see it.
n> Know of a good book I could read on this subject?

I know of many good books, but to point you at one would be hard. For
sendmail, I would suggest the one I referenced above. For Blat, I
don't know of one. For SMTP mail I would go with the sendmail book and
read the RFC's (lot's of them referenced on the Blat web site).

If you want to ask the book question a little more specifically, maybe
I can be more specific.
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...If you try to fail, and succeed, which have you done?
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namtog
2004-06-21 16:57:48 UTC
Permalink
Greetings,

I've spent the morning watching the Burt Rutan adventure with
SpaceShipOne. My congratulations to all involved.
Read more about it;
http://news.google.com/news?q=spaceshipone&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-
8&newwindow=1&safe=off&sa=N&tab=nn
http://www.scaled.com/projects/tierone/

Back to Blat.

Tim wrote;
Ah, I see now where you are coming from.

Blat's origin was to just send a quick eMail from the Command line in
Windows. It has sense matured into what it is now, but (guessing here)
it only started being used as a 'replacement' for *nix sendmail around
the 1.8.x level. By this time, it was a *long* way down it's
development path - which was *very* different than sendmail...

IIRC sendmail's origin was as an MTA (it's been about 6 years sense I
read the O'Reilly sendmail book
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/sendmail3/index.html ). The ability to
send from the command line was added later.

Then later Tim wrote;
Not sure I would say anything about Blat is "reinventing the wheel" I
just looked in an old 1.1 archive, and the blat.exe has a 1994 date!
Yes, sendmail is older, but I don't think they were ever on parallel
development paths.

Tim I now understand. It seems I was suffering under a few false
assumptions. Most notable that Sendmail is far older than Blat. Then
I assumed that two completely independent projects would mature in
the same way. Finally, at long last, I grok it.

[tinfoil hat]
I have d/l a copy of the current Blat source. The search for the
Super Double Secret Command (SDSC) will begin in ernest after a lunch
break. The SDSC, my black ops research concludes, can be invoked two
different ways. First as a preset; yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda SDSC
Next from the command line as a switch; Blat -SDSC Then Blat will
emulate the outgoing behavior of Sendmail.

I know it is there.
It must be there.
I will find it.
No Dark Force will hide it from me.
[/tinfoil hat]

Spending my morning watch CNN and think about Blat. Rhetorical
question follows. "Is it any wonder I am the babe magnet I am?"

Thanks to Tim and Chip for all of your help.

Namtog



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