Discussion:
Version 2.50 Successfull Delivery Notification Not Working
(too old to reply)
proven_solutions
2005-12-23 14:14:15 UTC
Permalink
I am using the '-d' options to obtain delivery notifications.
Non deliveries for unknown domain or unknown recipient at a valid
domain are working fine.
However, I am not receiving delivery notifications for * delivered *
E-mail.
I send a test to chip dot programmer at att dot net as a test and have
not received a valid delivery notice.
The '-r' option seems to be OK.

Thank you in advance for all suggestions.










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c***@att.net
2005-12-23 19:18:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by proven_solutions
I am using the '-d' options to obtain delivery notifications.
Non deliveries for unknown domain or unknown recipient at a valid
domain are working fine.
However, I am not receiving delivery notifications for * delivered *
E-mail.
I send a test to chip dot programmer at att dot net as a test and have
not received a valid delivery notice.
The '-r' option seems to be OK.
Thank you in advance for all suggestions.
I am reading and replying to this from my office. My home account shows your message was delivered and waiting for me to get home and download it. Perhaps AT&T does not respond to the delivery notification messages in order to fight spammers. I can tell you that I do not respond to them, personally, for the same reason. I don't want to discourage you from testing Blat, its just that I am anal about my privacy. :-D

Regards your question, why is the -d option not working as expected. I suspect many system adminstrators are disabling this in order to reduce traffic. I have seen cases where a user sent a message, then immediately set their email program to "Out of office", which caused a series of messages to bounce back and forth between users' autoresponders. The admins had to shut down the whole email service to clean up this problem that exploded within minutes.

As an alternative, have you tried using the -dsn option? For example: blat message.txt -t user -dsn s

Chip


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Allan Coganovitch
2005-12-24 02:07:25 UTC
Permalink
Chip,

Thank you for the prompt reply. It is appreciated.

Well, I was sending the E-mails to my own domain.
When I used the -dsn I was not getting any notifications.
When I switched to -d, I started getting only * non delivery * notifications.
Positive deliveries were not generating anything.

My client is asking a very basic question which is 'how do I know if the E-mail was received'. I explained the two types of notifications (delivery and read) and the fact that the read is very unreliable due to user preferences whereas I assumed that the delivery could be trusted.
I am not eager to tell them that the only way that they know that the E-mail was received is that they did not receive a * non delivery * notification.
I am the Exchange Admin for some of our clients and I know that it is very tempting to turn off NDR for incoming E-mails. However, I leave it on.

So, is the bottom line that receiving (or not receiving) a 'delivered notification' or 'non delivered notification' is a completely unreliable method to determine if an E-mail has actually been delivered?

If so, do you have any tricks up your sleeve? :).

Regards,

Allan Coganovitch, Proven Solutions Inc.
E-mail: ***@proven-solutions.com
WEB site: http://www.proven-solutions.com
416-227-2290 (phone), 416-227-2295 (fax)
----- Original Message -----
From: ***@att.net
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, December 23, 2005 2:18 PM
Subject: Re: [blat] Version 2.50 Successfull Delivery Notification Not Working
Post by proven_solutions
I am using the '-d' options to obtain delivery notifications.
Non deliveries for unknown domain or unknown recipient at a valid
domain are working fine.
However, I am not receiving delivery notifications for * delivered *
E-mail.
I send a test to chip dot programmer at att dot net as a test and have
not received a valid delivery notice.
The '-r' option seems to be OK.
Thank you in advance for all suggestions.
I am reading and replying to this from my office. My home account shows your message was delivered and waiting for me to get home and download it. Perhaps AT&T does not respond to the delivery notification messages in order to fight spammers. I can tell you that I do not respond to them, personally, for the same reason. I don't want to discourage you from testing Blat, its just that I am anal about my privacy. :-D

Regards your question, why is the -d option not working as expected. I suspect many system adminstrators are disabling this in order to reduce traffic. I have seen cases where a user sent a message, then immediately set their email program to "Out of office", which caused a series of messages to bounce back and forth between users' autoresponders. The admins had to shut down the whole email service to clean up this problem that exploded within minutes.

As an alternative, have you tried using the -dsn option? For example: blat message.txt -t user -dsn s

Chip



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Chip
2005-12-24 03:32:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Allan Coganovitch
Chip,
Thank you for the prompt reply. It is appreciated.
Well, I was sending the E-mails to my own domain.
When I used the -dsn I was not getting any notifications.
When I switched to -d, I started getting only * non delivery *
notifications.
Positive deliveries were not generating anything.
My client is asking a very basic question which is 'how do I know if the
E-mail was received'. I explained the two types of notifications (delivery
and read) and the fact that the read is very unreliable due to user
preferences whereas I assumed that the delivery could be trusted.
I am not eager to tell them that the only way that they know that the
E-mail was received is that they did not receive a * non delivery *
notification.
I am the Exchange Admin for some of our clients and I know that it is very
tempting to turn off NDR for incoming E-mails. However, I leave it on.
So, is the bottom line that receiving (or not receiving) a 'delivered
notification' or 'non delivered notification' is a completely unreliable
method to determine if an E-mail has actually been delivered?
If so, do you have any tricks up your sleeve? :).
Regards,
Allan Coganovitch, Proven Solutions Inc.
WEB site: http://www.proven-solutions.com
416-227-2290 (phone), 416-227-2295 (fax)
Actually, the "-dsn sf" is expected to return a successful delivery of your
emails, either to the target domain or to the intended mailbox, or a failure
email if the target domain or mailbox is having problems. The -d and -r are
both unreliable, even within the same organization. I have not found a
foolproof method of knowing emails have been delivered, or when.

Explain to your clients that email is not a paid per message service,
requiring signatures from the recipients, therefore delivery notifications
are not necessarily honored, for privacy reasons.

Chip



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Chip
2005-12-24 15:09:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chip
Actually, the "-dsn sf" is expected to return a successful delivery of your
emails, either to the target domain or to the intended mailbox, or a failure
email if the target domain or mailbox is having problems. The -d and -r are
both unreliable, even within the same organization. I have not found a
foolproof method of knowing emails have been delivered, or when.
Explain to your clients that email is not a paid per message service,
requiring signatures from the recipients, therefore delivery notifications
are not necessarily honored, for privacy reasons.
Chip
An easier approach is to send HTML with graphics unique to each recipient.
However, if this technique is not sufficiently disguised, spam filters will
pick up on the trick and block it. This, too, is not 100% foolproof, even
when the spam filters pass it through, because some people read email in
plain text or have graphics blocked by their email program.

Chip



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Allan Coganovitch
2005-12-24 21:09:13 UTC
Permalink
I agree with your previous post as to using the 'd' (or 'dsn') and explaining to the users that it is not a bullet-proof technique.

There are also scripts that spammers use, etc.

Regards,

Allan Coganovitch, Proven Solutions Inc.
E-mail: ***@proven-solutions.com
WEB site: http://www.proven-solutions.com
416-227-2290 (phone), 416-227-2295 (fax)
----- Original Message -----
From: Chip
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, December 24, 2005 10:09 AM
Subject: Re: [blat] Version 2.50 Successfull Delivery Notification Not Working
Post by Chip
Actually, the "-dsn sf" is expected to return a successful delivery of your
emails, either to the target domain or to the intended mailbox, or a failure
email if the target domain or mailbox is having problems. The -d and -r are
both unreliable, even within the same organization. I have not found a
foolproof method of knowing emails have been delivered, or when.
Explain to your clients that email is not a paid per message service,
requiring signatures from the recipients, therefore delivery notifications
are not necessarily honored, for privacy reasons.
Chip
An easier approach is to send HTML with graphics unique to each recipient.
However, if this technique is not sufficiently disguised, spam filters will
pick up on the trick and block it. This, too, is not 100% foolproof, even
when the spam filters pass it through, because some people read email in
plain text or have graphics blocked by their email program.

Chip




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L.Willms
2005-12-24 08:30:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Allan Coganovitch
My client is asking a very basic question which is 'how do I know if
the E-mail was received'. I explained the two types of notifications
(delivery and read) and the fact that the read is very unreliable due to
user preferences whereas I assumed that the delivery could be trusted.
Post by Allan Coganovitch
I am not eager to tell them that the only way that they know that the
E-mail was received is that they did not receive a * non delivery *
notification.

Not even that is reliable. Some Spam-filter or Virus-scanner might
delete the message without any notification to the sender.

DSN (Delivery Status Notification) as requested with the -dsn switch,
specfied in RFC-3461, is not supported by each and every SMTP server
(MTA).

The only reliable way to be sure that the recipient has received the
message is a not from the recipient in person, be it via email, phone,
or other means.

This is as I see it...


Yours,
Lüko Willms
-----------------------------------------------
Frankfurt/Main





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namtog
2005-12-24 13:54:55 UTC
Permalink
Greetings,

If you want to see if your email is being
read try this technique;
http://www.boingboing.net/2005/12/23/experiment_to_see_if.html

Namtog






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Allan Coganovitch
2005-12-24 21:03:12 UTC
Permalink
I think I will pass on this one.

Regards,

Allan Coganovitch, Proven Solutions Inc.
E-mail: ***@proven-solutions.com
WEB site: http://www.proven-solutions.com
416-227-2290 (phone), 416-227-2295 (fax)
----- Original Message -----
From: namtog
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, December 24, 2005 8:54 AM
Subject: [blat] Re: Version 2.50 Successfull Delivery Notification Not Working


Greetings,

If you want to see if your email is being
read try this technique;
http://www.boingboing.net/2005/12/23/experiment_to_see_if.html

Namtog







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Allan Coganovitch
2005-12-24 21:05:06 UTC
Permalink
Is there any reason why both the '-dsn' and '-d' both cannot be used in the same E-mail?

Regards,

Allan Coganovitch, Proven Solutions Inc.
E-mail: ***@proven-solutions.com
WEB site: http://www.proven-solutions.com
416-227-2290 (phone), 416-227-2295 (fax)
----- Original Message -----
From: L.Willms
To: ***@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, December 24, 2005 3:30 AM
Subject: Re: [blat] Version 2.50 Successfull Delivery Notification Not Working
Post by Allan Coganovitch
My client is asking a very basic question which is 'how do I know if
the E-mail was received'. I explained the two types of notifications
(delivery and read) and the fact that the read is very unreliable due to
user preferences whereas I assumed that the delivery could be trusted.
Post by Allan Coganovitch
I am not eager to tell them that the only way that they know that the
E-mail was received is that they did not receive a * non delivery *
notification.

Not even that is reliable. Some Spam-filter or Virus-scanner might
delete the message without any notification to the sender.

DSN (Delivery Status Notification) as requested with the -dsn switch,
specfied in RFC-3461, is not supported by each and every SMTP server
(MTA).

The only reliable way to be sure that the recipient has received the
message is a not from the recipient in person, be it via email, phone,
or other means.

This is as I see it...


Yours,
Lüko Willms
-----------------------------------------------
Frankfurt/Main






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namtog
2005-12-24 22:26:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Allan Coganovitch
Is there any reason why both the '-dsn' and '-d' both cannot be used in the same E-mail?
Greetings Allan Coganovitch,

You can set both -dsn and -d for all the
good it will do you.

As far as I can tell there is no way to
know if a person has opened, changed a email
to a read state. Not if they don't want you
to.

One of the oldest email tricks is to make a
copy of a email and then forward it to yourself.
No amount of send options, -dsn etc. will be
of help then.

At this point the recipient can read the email and
still maintain plausible deniability. I concur with
Lüko Willms;

"The only reliable way to be sure that the recipient
has received the message is a note (sp) from the
recipient in person, be it via email, phone,
or other means."

Maybe your client should switch to IM. Few bots
are all that convincing.

Namtog






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